Thursday, November 5, 2009

Debate #1: Learn to Play Full-Stacked

As we all know, short stackers are a bunch of talentless, uncreative twits who are either lazy or greedy and have no respect for the game. Luckily this is poker and not alternative music and we don't need to pretend that are we here for anything other than the money. So why should any of us "learn" to play full stacked (we have said many times that we do, but since you won't believe us anyway, just assume that we don't)? Here are the objections to this lousy argument:


I assume that since you both play online and take the time out of your day to google poker terms, that this game is important to you and therefore the money that you make (or attempt to make) is also important to you. So if we learn how to play poker, how exactly does this benefit you? You must be assuming that since we are talentless to begin with, you will still be able to crush us in your .10/.25 game where you would proudly reign as king if it were not for those lowly dissident short stackers. Yet what if that isn't the case? You have now turned an untalented fish into a competing force that now swallows fish whole rather than taking a nibble from them and saving the good parts for YOU.

But now here's the thing. If I'm talentless and yet still found a way to win, why would I give that up, especially when giving it up would mean that I would have to work a 9 to 5 job on someone else's terms? At least the people who say "DIE SHORTSTACK SKUM" have their priorities in order....


Supposing this is true (I'm talentless), I just don't see how this is any concern of yours. Alas, it's not a concern of mine either. No one has said anything like "you could play so many more tables" or "you will have so much less stress" or "you won't lose any sleep because you got bluffed out of a huge pot" or even "you could play much longer sessions." I eventually came to the conclusion (see article titled: ...And Everything is Illuminated) that these things are what REALLY matter to me. My win rate was probably a little bit better, but the swings made it difficult to play for long sessions at a time and I often would put in 20-25 hour weeks, which could make subpar months difficult to live on.


It's a job dillhole, it's not supposed to be fun. A job that I make a lot of money doing and yet once again, I don't see how this is any of your concern. In fact, this is what should console you and your choice to sweat it out every day and warm your soul when you can't sleep at night. I traded my win rate and variance for the fun that you get out of the game. Is this what bothers you or is it that you worry that I actually DO enjoy it? I DO...sorry, you lose again!!!


This is just stupid. Making the game fun is something that you do in a live setting or home game to keep the fish around. I don't recall anyone saying that this is some kind of rule for online play, and chances are that if you are making it fun for someone else, you have been doing something wrong. In other words, if guys are following you around from table to table it isn't because of your quick wit or because they admire your play.

And besides...all those regs hate each other, and they hate you as well. Case closed.


First of all, let me clarify that short stacking falls into two categories that I now like to coin: passive short stacking and exploitive short stacking. Passive short stacking is the one that most of you are familiar with and I fail to see how this is a problem in your normal game. Those are the guys who sit around and wait for premium hands and try to get all in with them before the flop. I don't understand how or why you think guys like this are ruining the game, because all you need to do is fold to their raises and steal their blinds. They are out there looking for large edges and since those come along very seldom, these guys won't be playing a whole lot of pots with you. In short, quit acting like a fucking cry baby, because that is what you are if you are complaining about this. And don't worry- these guys aren't making much money.

If passive short stacking is the poker equivalent of pan handling then all you would need to do is cross the street to avoid them. An exploitive short stacker is a back alley mugger who will chase you across the street and stab you just to take the quarter that they just saw you stick in your pocket. They are masters of finding small edges and aren't afraid to stick in all their money to get it. This what the truly successful ones are doing, and some of them are making upwards of $400,000 a year, in other words, what you would make in approximately 80 years in your normal .10/.25 game or 26 years working your job at McDonald's.

Now if there were a Nobel Prize for poker, the person who created exploitive short stacking surely would have won it. You might think it is simple, yet it is actually a superior strategy when placed side by side with ALL of them. "But it's so simple...." you whine. Exactly. It's what made Windows superior to DOS, which made computing accessible to the masses. Full stacked poker is actually a very weak strategy (let's lump them all together, for argument's sake), because for most people it does more harm than good. If it is only available or usable by a small group of elite players, then that says more about the person wielding it than it does about the strategy.

Pretend for a minute that someone were attacking you with a knife. What would you rather defend yourself with, your own knife or a can of pepper spray? With the knife, you have to get in close where you are in the most danger, strike better than your opponent and hit vital organs and then jump back before they can strike back. With the can of pepper spray, you can stand back at a distance, shoot it in their general direction and then run away while they curse you.

It has been said that if you don't know what you are doing then taking a knife to a fight poses more danger to yourself than it does to your adversary. After all, I'm not out to kill anyone, I just want to live to fight another day...


Anonymous said...

That was an A+ post Lorin. If it was Travis, my bad, but I didn't gather who wrote it. Anyway, we shortstackers are mavericks, rebels, we get joy out of exploiting setminers, LAGtards, BTN/CO abusers, and people who limp with suited connectors and other trash. Excellent post. NOT losing 100BB pots and NOT having 300BB hourly swings is EXACTLY why we shortstack. That, and the sick 4-8k in RB that can be made per month at 100-200NL.


Anonymous said...

and P.S. I will take your weapons analogy one step closer. Fullstacking is akin to using a knife or sword. Shortstacking is akin to using a high powered sniper rifle with laser sight :-)

Anonymous said...

i read the 1st few lines then gave up out of boredom, seems like your desperate for people to think you can play deepstacked if you want and had to write a huge article to prove this, pretty lol

just admit short stacking was your last resort and you might actually gain some respect

Lorin Yelle said...

You're right. It must make you feel really inadequate to know that someone who knows nothing about poker still makes 5 times what you do :)

Finnianp said...

Anonymous 1...what a stupidanalogy. As fullstackers we have more power at the poker table, for obvious reasons, and yet you compare us to a sword/knife? Great reasoning there.
Lorin, stopped reading after first few sentences...boring.

Lorin Yelle said...

Finnian, is that you? I see that you blog is still titled "BLOG OF A 25NL(FOR THE MOMENT) FR GRINDER".

That's a year long moment, it seems....

Anonymous said...

you obviously care loads about peoples views that you are less skilled, its not rly a view its just a fact, you know less about poker and make less money than me

Lorin Yelle said...

Why should anyone's opinion affect me? Go back to 2+2.

Anonymous said...

For those who say they win more where's the proof. Lorin's posted his results where are yours? Talk is what bitches do when they have no game (or evidence of game) to back it up. If not stop posting on his site. Seriously, I don't see him invading your blogs to post that you never move up in limits and have been stuck at 25nl forever. I'm sure we'll get the oh so intelligent responses that his a sucking on his balls post and yet that does nothing to diffuse the lack of substance in your argument.
Lorin's way works for him. Think of it as a version of the west coast offense. Some football coaches like some don't. Full stacking works for you fine that's great. The only evidence that you are better or that he is better is that yearly score sheet that shows this $, talk to any real pro and that's what better means to them (just like working professional and the best usually get paid the most). So if you are going to hate, that is your first amendment right, but do not be a bitch, post your results that show you as being qualified to say that Lorin knows nothing. He's posted his, that gives him the right to talk shit. So prove it or add something constructive to the discussion of strategy or the humor that's written, if not GTFO.

Lorin Yelle said...

Thank you dearly, most recent Mr. Anonymous.

Thanks to you as well, Jason. How have things been going on your end? Any improvement?

Finnianp said...

I was just merely stating that the post was a boring read, which is the truth. Last anonymous; where did I say that Lorin knows nothing? Remind me please.
And as for "seriously, I don't see him invading your blogs" I'm sure platonic would have a few things to say about this.

Travis "The Dirrty" Rose said...

As far as "Platonic" goes, he asked for it by invading our blog first and repaetedly, and I don't think he minded since he doesn't exist.
I also have a question about how you "have more power" at the table. Perhaps over other players but not over shortstackers. One of the strengths of the system is that we can dictate the terms/stakes. You can't ever put us under pressure for more than we bought in for, so we are actually dictating the terms. You can't play your suited connectors hoping to get paid off with the "implied odds" for 100bb against us, you can only play it for 20bb that we dictate.
Just something to think about....

Lorin Yelle said...


By saying that you have dismissed it without even reading any of it is not doing any justice to your intelligence. You have made it clear how you feel about both myself and my strategy, yet you still come here to read it and post your opinion. An opinion is all it is, which is now made fact since you admit that you haven't even been reading the material.

And to answer the question of whether or not it is boring, well I just don't care. This blog was not meant to be Chuck-E-Cheese, it was meant to stimulate outside the box thinking and discussion. In fact, most of things that it takes to become a successful poker player could hardly be considered fun in the first place in the traditional sense. And if you aren't willing to sacrifice having some fun in order to get better, you won't just be a NL25 grinder for the will be one for the rest of your life.

I am sorry to say that you obviously just don't have what it takes to be a short stacker, which takes many hours of offline study and hours of thought each and every day on how to improve. I can see clearly now why you would hate it so.

Anonymous said...

Finnianp, let me remind you. Not once did I direct my post at you personally. In fact since your last post brought up the clarity of my post in stating that I said that you said "Lorin knows nothing" I would suggest you readdress your focus while reading. My post was directed at the general critical post that people put on for no apparrent reason then to criticize. My post had no ill will to you personally. That being said in reexamining your post, one could say by suggesting Lorin's initial post was boring and that you could not get past the first through lines, you wree implying that Lorin is saying nothing worth reading or 'know's nothing.' That is not for me to determine but only depends on the intent of the statement (as just how you felt or that and a backhanded slap at Lorin).
Your point about stacksize is relevant, when it comes to other fullsize or medium to large stacks. I do happen to agree with Travis. A tool that fullstackers have in their aresenals are implied odds calls especially against opponents (fish) who stack off lite. I may be misquoting my poker literature as I don't want to bother looking through the books but the authors of professional no limit hold'em volume one (at least I think it is this book) discuss the idea of stack size and that your effective stack size is really that of the smaller stack you are playing against in one hand. So in a hand against Lorin you are really short stacking against him, and through his practice would be better at it than you.
As a side note, as something I have noticed from 'superior full stackers' people that I had previously had notes on that were at least decent enough to be respected. If you throw a shortstacker in there they go crazy as if it were there jobs to throw a bad beat on you with 75 suited to teach you a 'lesson.' The only lesson fullstackers teach is that if you are going to call my aces that lite with 75 suited, clearly there must be something to shortstacking.
In the end instead of complaining, fullstackers should focus on their play. On becoming better and trying to neutralize or avoid shortstackers, because the hatred they have is making them become worse players 'to prove a point,' and Lorin will keep gobling it up like pac-man all the way to the bank. In the end you should always be worrying about your game and what you can do to improve, because that is what the best always are doing, it's what Jordan did, it's what Tiger does and so on and so forth.

Anonymous said...

Hi again Lorin,

as far as my results lately, I'm doing just fine. I'm very close to
Supernova and I'm pleased with the consistency of my EV line.

Seriously considering going for SNE next year, will keep you posted.


Publius said...

You're going to chase me across the street and stab me just to take ONE QUARTER?

Travis "The Dirrty" Rose said...


Yes, but we chase you across the street to stab you and take a quarter 30,0000 to 50,000 times a month.....