Thursday, June 11, 2009

Alternative Line #1B: Defending Against the Limp Re-raise

It is undeniable that after reading the previous post on how to play AK that some short stackers out there will undoubtedly be using this play. The question is, how should another short stacker respond? Rather than come out and say it, let's just look at a hypothethical example.

A short stacker (abcy123, perhaps?) limps from early position. You are dealt QQ on the cutoff. Should you raise? No!!!

Why? Pretty simple. Mr. Abcy123 has just played his hand face-up. If you raise, you know he is going to shove and you are right back to a 54% favorite (vs. AKs), and you are essentially flipping for the pot with no real advantage, which is contrary to why anyone would short stack in the first place. Of course, your hand is clearly too good to fold, so what should you do? Break the short stacker's one Commandment and limp, goddamnit!

Why limp? If it isn't 100% obvious at this point, then I will state the obvious. The AK is 2:1 to hit on the flop. If you limp and someone else raises, you can now get all in as a favorite against one or two players. Not perfect, but certainly better than getting all in against a single player as a 50/50 proposition. Even better still, you get to see the flop in position and you can instantly bail if the dreaded A or K hits or you can even slow-play if you hit a Q and the AK bricks. What could be easier than playing a hand face-up?

25 comments:

Memphis MOJO said...

"The AK is 2:1 to hit on the flop."

Are you sure about this? That seems way too high.

Lorin Yelle said...

I'm sure, but for Mr. Kruger, AK only hits 3.7:1, but only when playing online and his opponent holds exactly AQo.

Memphis MOJO said...

Ok, I see what you meant. AK is 2:1 against to hit on the flop.

Enjoy your blog. Thx for the nice posts.

Lorin Yelle said...

Yes, my apologies if that wasn't clear.

KnockoffNeil said...

ive got a lil situation for you dude, if you care to analyse it for me?
$2/$4 full ring im SS'in and this is the 10th hand ive played.
Im in the BB with KJs (pretty cards hmmmmmmm). It folds round to button who raises to $14. Im not used to SS'in but in my normal world world i re-raise this stealing mother upto $40, which is what i do. this only leave me about $30 behind and my opponent thinks for a while before going all in (hes only on one table so i take this as a tell) I feel im pretty much committed to call here. call $30 to win $110 so odds are good right?

To my disgust he flips AJo but i miricle a king on the turn. How should i have played this hand, or did i do the right thing and hit a bad situation.

Id love to get your feedback (and anyone elses for that matter)

Neil

Lorin Yelle said...

KJs is the minimum hand I would shove in this spot against an average or unknown player, and that is what I would do- shove.

I see a lot of short stackers make a normal re-raise, and I don't see the point to that. Your opponents don't behave any differently, and you have still committed the same amount of money, because you are right, you can't fold here because the odds you are getting. So I say, just shove it in.

KnockoffNeil said...

ah i see, i honestly thought the re raise looked stronger because im showing this guy how committed i am to the hand. usually i like just shoving all in over a raise with aces or kings as it looks weaker and 2 out of 3 times it works on these softer sites as long as theres been a raise on the table somewhere already. thanks for the input anyway dude, will you be on cake tonight? il rail/stalk ya for a bit if you dnt mid that is.

cheers

Lorin Yelle said...

If you were playing this hand in a vacuum, then yes, it would look stronger, but when people see you doing this all the time, then it looks no different than a shove.

I might be on at Cake later. Who do you play as? Right now, I am DigBickMcGee.

KnockoffNeil said...

oh so thats who digbick mcgee is lol, i was sat with you at $3/$6 earlier. Im boulder316 or knockoffneil if im on cake. Did ya see my all in wid AQ vs mr min raises KQ......BEAUTIFUL. Have a good night dude. If you see me at $3/$6 again though please advise me to leave, as i shouldnt really be even sat at $1/$2 lol.

Kevin Stevens said...

Very much enjoying the blog chaps, keep up the good work.

I’m a bit of a habitual challenge starter 0-1000 and Jesus challenge things. I’ve never short stacked and wondered if you had some ideas about the best approach to a low limit short stack challenge?

Lorin Yelle said...

Are you talking some kind of challenge for someone else, or did you want to take the challenge? I would only do this at $1/2 and I would have to rework some of the details as I was pretty drunk and angry when I wrote that last post, lol!

Lorin Yelle said...

Neil, sorry I missed it. I was probably too busy pulling out my hair or putting my fist through my desk at the time. Though, strangely the $3/6 game has been unusually kind to me the past few days while the bottom of the floor was caving in at $1/2. :)

Kevin Stevens said...

What's the least amount of money you would need to shortstack 1/2 with a chance of sucess? Thanks for your help BTW.

Kevin Stevens said...

And yeah definately something im thinking about doing personally.

Lorin Yelle said...

The least amount of money? $40! :)

Seriously, the very least I would say would be $300, but I would definitely drop down to $.5/1 if you get down to $200.

Kevin Stevens said...

Cheers Fella, I'm going to give that a go.

Lorin Yelle said...

Uh oh- sounds like this is your first time. I wish you the best of luck, but I fear this will end very badly...

The "recommended" roll was meant for an experienced short stacker.

Roenan said...

Listen to Lorin, I started shortstacking after reading his blog in April and it takes a lot of mental adjusting from full stacking. Much Thanks to Lorin, he hasn't given away deep dark trade secrets, but his blog has shed light on something I wouldn't have considered, and since April shortstacking has been successful and poker has felt like a lot less of an emotional drain (getting queens cracked by queen 8 suited just hurts much less for 20bbs) In a month I'll be up to 100 nl short stacking (I've been trying to give each limit close two months as I get an education in shortstacking). Lorin, maybe in the future you and Travis can write an entry of your beginning couple of months when you first started/were still putting up your strat for shortstacking.

Kevin Stevens said...

LOL, your right to be concerned! Add to the fact im the king of tilt then "houston we have a problem!". To be honest though I'm more interested in a challenge than making quick money so would start at what ever point you chaps would recommend.

Cheers Kev

Travis "The Dirrty" Rose said...

@ Kevin

When I first started getting my feet wet with shortstacking (and make no mistake, Lorin worked this theory out then taught it to me) I played $.50/$1.00. The thing that I figured out pretty quickly (and later confirmed with some statistical analysis) was that when you play that low, you need to buy in for 22 to 23 bbs (the analysis came back at exactly 22.5 bbs) to help overcome the larger factor that the RAKE plays at that limit.

Hope this helps a little....

Lorin Yelle said...

Kevin, I'd love to make you a convert, but I definitely don't want to see you go broke in the process. Just be careful, that's all.

Lorin Yelle said...

Roenan,

That's a great idea for a new post. What I have to say on the topic is actually a great lesson.

Roenan said...

@ Travis, I was actually wondering about that. At 50 nl the 20 bb buy in is 10 bucks and so when I get it in I get 19.75 back after rake. I was wondering if I should buy in with 21 bbs just to compensate so that when I win I get the full 20 bbs so that I can pull my auto blind and leave before blinds come around (instead I have just been leaving when i get to 39 BBs).

Lorin Yelle said...

There is something to be said for this, however, you will be paying the price on re-steals and open shoves where you are hoping to make most of your profit from fold equity. It has it's strong points, but I think the jury is still out as to whether this is the better way to play.

Kevin Stevens said...

A shortstacking for Dummies guide would be very useful!